--- Log opened Thu Mar 12 00:00:14 2015
< qwebirc53007> Cant launch the installer on mac OS 10.7.501:54

Freenet installer
<@xor-freenet> "<TheSeeker> [17:37:45] If WoT is stable, can we finally have a 1468 pre-2 now?" i decided that i will include a freenet.jar in the WOT release candidate, with no warranty of course... it will include the head revision of next05:12
"<rfree_prox> [17:58:41] hmm I can't read entire backlog, is WoT improved performance currently?" see the draft changelog: https://gist.github.com/xor-freenet/aa65 1d1c71427fccdb6f05:14
"<rfree_prox> [18:41:50] not to start a long debate, but I thought we aren't forced to kick people like " <qwebirc34035> i need help finfing censored books " it doesn't say it is about our occupants (UK/USA governments) </my-political-opinion-plug> - it could as well be guy in China or North Korea asking about things that are banned there and USA and UK officially support like "books on democracy" etc. For future." i don't enjoy kicking people05:16
either. please consider this from the imaginary point of view of content industry suing me and asking me why i didn't kick people who asked for copies of typically copyrighted content, while i was obviously active on IRC at the same time
....... in other news: the final WOT test run completed without errors! i will give myself some time to wake up now, and then publish the release candidate.
rfree_prox: but i do also think that the kick was an edge case now, he did ask for *censored* books, not books in general. if this happens again, i would ask whether he's like from north korea first05:25
 -!- mode/#freenet [-b qwebirc34035!*@*] by xor-freenet05:29
< TheSeeker> Am I correct in my understanding that if you give someone an FBlob file, they won't be able to know what it contains unless they also know the key(s) for the content of that blob?05:51
<@nextgens> TheSeeker> yes08:52

TheSeeker> except that to generate the fblob you need the key (to know what to include in it)08:53

at least the routing keys
< GitHub54> [plugin-WebOfTrust] xor-freenet tagged build0014-rc01 at ef44a15: http://git.io/pitK09:05
<@xor-freenet> ArneBab: i've used a lot of the improvements from your changelog fork, thanks09:27

ArneBab: i've asked a non-comp-sci friend of mine who does at least know what commits are about whether he likes changelogs which contain commit amounts, and he was like "sure, changelogs often contain lots of text without actually changing much, by having the commit count i at least know whether the changelog is noise only or really much work". thus, i did not remove the commit amount from the changelog. i have however changed the wording to use09:29

more modest choice of words

ArneBab: i can give you another example of my personal life experience which backs this decision: when watching tv stuff such as especially documentaries which are made for non-engineer, non-comp-sci people, i frequently get this very annoying feeling of "give me the damn NUMBERS instead of telling me 'uses as much electricity as a soccer stadium""... i've observed this for decades, i'm always annoyed by people not telling me numbers. i would09:33

expect readers of a technical thing such as changelogs to be from a STEM background as well and as such to also like numbers

ArneBab: converting the commit count to "months of work" is the same over-simplification as converting kilowatts to soccer-stadium units :)09:35
< ArneBab> TheSeeker: re FBlob: I did not know that - nice!
* xor-freenet now packages a zip with the WOT release candidate09:36
< ArneBab> xor-freenet: it’s roughly similar to converting kilowatthours to months of work :) — I guess when you leave out the “more than the old WoT had”, it will already avoid triggering alarms.09:37
xor-freenet: People on Freenet aren’t necessarily from a STEM background - they are just as likely to be here for political activism.09:38
<@xor-freenet> ArneBab: i still don't understand why people should get angry if a new release contains more atoms of work than the previous one ever consisted off. more new stuff = better.09:41
< ArneBab> xor-freenet: and from *my* experience (just to give a counter point), it was much easier to explain the power consumption of our cluster as “consumed as much electricity as 10 electric stoves and cost 1000€” than giving the kilowatt. Also, different from the kilowatt, I could actually remember that :)
xor-freenet: more new stuff = more places which could have bugs = more work to review09:42
corrections: more new Lines of Code
<@xor-freenet> ArneBab: as said yesterday, the consequence of considering new stuff as bad is killing oneself

ArneBab: life is change.
< ArneBab> xor-freenet: as said yesterday: It’s not about new stuff, it’s about counting lines of code instead of features.09:43
<@xor-freenet> ArneBab: and not everyone has the solve goal of *reviewing*. the changelog is for the *users*
< ArneBab> there is no single coherent group of users
but this discussion is leading nowhere. I gave you links to articles which provide solid data on the topic of bugs per kLOC, and we explained that the useful metric is features, not LOC. Please accept that you are not paid for LOC but for improving WoT.09:45
<@xor-freenet> ArneBab: commits != LOC

ArneBab: i'd actually define a commit as an atomic improvement of the code ~= feature :) but yes, we're not getting anywhere. the release is done and needs to be released. lets just agree that we're probably both overestimating the weight of this discussion, ok? i promise to take the blame if a flamewar of angry people about mentioning the commit count starts09:48
< ArneBab> xor-freenet: just tell me that you left out the comparison to the old version and the self-flaggelation, then I’m happy ☺09:53
(the number-of-anything compared to old version)
<@xor-freenet> thats the tag as i pushed it an hour ago https://github.com/freenet/plugin-WebOfT rust/releases/tag/build0014-rc0109:54

i'm ok with self-flaggelating me
< ArneBab> but I am not OK with self-flaggelation being in release notes. They are not your blog but a project status report, pretty close to an official statement.09:56
<@xor-freenet> as far as i know, being able to laugh about oneself is generally considered as a good thing.09:57
< ArneBab> only if other people can join in the laugh and don’t get sarcastic09:58
<@xor-freenet> if i only had not used the word "bikeshedding" yet, this whole thing is where i would pull it out the first time :)09:59
< ArneBab> our release manager told you that this is raising alarm bells, I told you that this is a communication train wreck, nextgens told you that it’s the wrong metric to report (“what counts…is how far it got us”) and you admitted that your social skills suck, but you still refuse to take advise.10:01
<@xor-freenet> ArneBab: i rewrote 80% of the introduction10:02
< ArneBab> xor-freenet: project communication is NOT bikeshedding, it is an essential part of keeping a project alive. You know you are bad at it, so take advise from people who are less bad at that.
<@xor-freenet> ArneBab: please actually read how it is now before you judge it.
< ArneBab> xor-freenet: and you kept in the worst parts.
<@xor-freenet> ArneBab: how do you know that you're not bad at it?
< ArneBab> I did read it. And I saw that the time trying to avoid a trainwreck was mostly wasted.10:03
<@xor-freenet> ArneBab: this is a damn changelog it is not a draft for the world constitution of the federal united nations of the earth

ArneBab: its supposed to tell what has changed

ArneBab: the amount of commits has changed.10:04

ArneBab: performance has not changed.
< ArneBab> xor-freenet: this is the damn report on your paid work. Users want to know what we used the donations for, and “bad news and good news” isn’t that.
<@xor-freenet> ArneBab: thus by telling that, i tell the truth

ArneBab: do you want me to lie to people?
< ArneBab> xor-freenet: you just blew my lid.
reflect on what communication provides before you accuse me of asking you that.10:05
<@xor-freenet> ArneBab: because this IS bad news. everyone has been expecting a performance improvement for years. thats the truth.

ArneBab: its the damn truth to admit that this sucks.

ArneBab: now i can of course try to hide this by changing the wording, but i think its a pretty ridiculous thing to do10:06

ArneBab: because if i was a user and the folks had been trying to fix the performance for years and now postpone it again, i would at least expect them to A) tell me B) explain why.
< ArneBab> xor-freenet: Read my proposal again and then see whether you would accuse that of being a lie.
I’m growing detached, I’m out.10:07
<@xor-freenet> ArneBab: and there is a pretty solid technical explanation for why this is, namely the fact that event-notifications needs to be put to use.

ArneBab: so we're fine to make fun of the fix not fixing it yet, because we explain why it will allow that.
< ArneBab> xor-freenet: no, we are not FINE making FUN of not fixing what people asked to fix. We explain why this was the sensible course of action.10:09
<@xor-freenet> ArneBab: just imagine the shitstorm which would have happened if i did it the other way around: if the changelog NOT made absolutely clear that performance improvements will take more time. what do you think would happen then?

ArneBab: which part is the "fun" in the current edition actually?10:10
< ArneBab> xor-freenet: and if you’re able to realize that you accused me of lying in the proposal, please try to rejudge your social skills by that.
xor-freenet: it’s trying to be funny (good news and bad news)
<@xor-freenet> ArneBab: i don't see a "haha, you're screwed" there. it says there is good news and there is bad news, which is fact. is that the problem? or what is?

can someone else PLEASE read the changelog and say whether it is offensive, yes or no? https://github.com/freenet/plugin-WebOfT rust/releases/tag/build0014-rc0110:11
< ArneBab> xor-freenet: enough. In my eyes you just failed at communication. Totally. And in doing so sucked up time other people (including me) donated. Explanations won’t change that.10:12
and now I’m out for at least an hour.10:13
<@xor-freenet> ArneBab: you are obsessed.

ArneBab: i don't know why people do this, but this is the typical computer-folks attitude i was trying to point out yesterday.... chose a pity insanely small uninteresting boring detail about something and become ULTRA religious about it and fight a holy war for it... about details which a normal user wouldn't even notice.... same as the systemd war, same as the fact that the luke-jr guy forked bitcoin to change the number system to base-1610:16

because he things the whole planet will convert to base-16 if he annoys enough people.

it wouldn't even technically possible to explain this to someone who isn't a programmer what we just spend hours of our lives on. the wouldn't understand it.10:17

"so you shouted at each others for hours because one of you made a joke about himself?"10:18

and for what its worth, as far as i see it, operhiem1 didn't even talk about the changelog itself, but merely about his review-burden, since he didn't respond to any of the discussion yet; and what nextgens criticized was that the release is worthless if its not released - which you're actively involved in right now10:20

i'm still waiting for someone else to explicitely say "the changelog sucks, change it"

so please: <xor-freenet> can someone else PLEASE read the changelog and say whether it is offensive, yes or no? https://github.com/freenet/plugin-WebOfT rust/releases/tag/build0014-rc01
< n1qn4q> I like precise information, so think longterm even if i am illiterate today i can maybe make more sense of changelog in the future or when i come around and have time to visit this tech or that feature or have my own experiences with buzzword x or technology z that is in a changelog10:22
so as long as it is giving good information and also how stuff improved or reasons why this or that was considered or changed or modified i am fine with long changelog10:23
gives insight into thinking of the project or component and the minds and reasoning of the developers
<@xor-freenet> n1qn4q: the discussion is not about the length, Arnebab things saying "There's good news and bad news" at the start of it is offensive to our users
< n1qn4q> helps me to grow more acccustomed to the part the changelog is about and to become more familiar
<@xor-freenet> n1qn4q: things = thinks10:24

n1qn4q: because that phrase is trying to be funny and he thinks we shouldn't be making fun there

n1qn4q: so i'm interested in feedback about that particular area at the beginning10:25
< GitHub197> [plugin-WebOfTrust] xor-freenet tagged build0014-rc02 at 7a54ea8: http://git.io/pigm10:46
<@xor-freenet> ArneBab: since nobody else seems to review it and i want the release done, i've given you the benefit of doubt and removed all emotions from the changelog. i've tagged it as rc2 since deleting tag rc1 would be rewriting history and history must not be changed. https://github.com/freenet/plugin-WebOfT rust/releases/tag/build0014-rc02 please in the future be aware that every time you do such things, my body tells me "you'll die 2 weeks earlier10:51

from this", which doesn't exactly feel nice. please maybe also consider that the goal of freenet is to help people in countries where they will get literally KILLED for consuming censored information, so every time we waste our time by discussing menial boring textfiles, we might be involved in people getting caught and killed by not finally getting freenet usable there.
< n1qn4q> i see no problem with it10:53
wonder why anyone worries about it being 'offensive'?
<@xor-freenet> n1qn4q: thanks for reviewing it
< n1qn4q> that document is your way of describing what you did so why could anyone complain about wording or stuff like that
< RdrOfTheSt0rm> i think its ok... I hate to say i kind of agree with arne the first one kind of read like a blog entry. Most changelogs ive read are basicly a 'dry' list of changes11:11

just my 2c
<@xor-freenet> thanks
< RdrOfTheSt0rm> i think we need both kinds of comunication a 'log of changes' so i can easily look up what changed where in which version. But also be able to read somewhere why and how something changed and learn about the evolution of a piece of software11:15

if that makes any sense :-)11:16
<@xor-freenet> now that i think about it, the i had motivation for including blog-like stuff is also to reduce maintenance overhead: i could then post this everywhere without further adaption - the mailing list, FMS, my flog, the git tag
< kork> JFTR: I'm not offended by "good and bad news"
<@xor-freenet> kork: thanks for reviewing it :)
the i had motivation = the motivation i had
< RdrOfTheSt0rm> but im certainly not offended by anything you said - i enjoyed reading it and feel i understand11:17
<@xor-freenet> ok thanks for even more of feedback
< RdrOfTheSt0rm> wot development 'slighty' better
<@xor-freenet> hmm?11:18
< RdrOfTheSt0rm> hmm? @ me?11:20
<@xor-freenet> "<RdrOfTheSt0rm> wot development 'slighty' better" what do you mean by "wot development" ?11:21
< RdrOfTheSt0rm> as in i get that this is a MASSIVE update that will not 'appear' much better without more work11:23
<@xor-freenet> :)11:24
the UI is actually a lot nicer, but it will probably still be as poorly accessible as previously since the core will block it from loading when busy... but i will address this as the immediate next TODO of the next build11:25
< RdrOfTheSt0rm> but i am definatly not smart enough to actually be involved in the devlopment :-) so ill never actually understand it all11:26
<@xor-freenet> i think programming is generally judge to be more complex than it actually is... in opposite to learning a human language, a programming language is 100% well defined, there is no room for interpretation... so you always can precisely say what something means.... but even if you don't want to learn how to program, there are other very important contributions such as translations - or as what you just did: helping us stop arguing :)11:28
judge = judged
release candidate uploading.... 57%11:31
< ArneBab> xor-freenet: hour gone, looking back in here, seeing that you’ve pushed a new changelog which starts with “more commits than were ever part of WoT”. *sigh*. Seeing that you ask people about “offensive” instead of using my wording “can trigger haters” so your question is completely besides the point. *sigh* I think you should have just taken a break for an hour, too.11:32
<@xor-freenet> ArneBab: the statement about the commits is an objective, true fact which can be verified by anyone, and which is completely free from any emotion. its a number.11:33
< ArneBab> xor-freenet: and that’s completely besides the point.
<@xor-freenet> ArneBab: git rev-list --count build0013 ; git rev-list --count build0013..build0014-rc02
< ArneBab> xor-freenet: it’s also a fact that the diff used the letter e a given number of times, but that doesn’t mean that it’s useful to include that.11:34
< RdrOfTheSt0rm> xor-freenet:true about programming, i do a little, just a few odd jobs here and there.11:35
<@xor-freenet> ArneBab: remember that i yesterday showed you that the difference between commits divided by LOC is 6% among WOT and fred, even though there are different authors? this shows that commits size is a fundamental constant of the universe and as such a measurement of something :) what the something is is a different question11:36
< ArneBab> xor-freenet: remember that operhiem1 told you that “more code than ever” does not sound good? You should have taken that fucking serious.11:37
<@xor-freenet> ArneBab: if that doesn't sound good to you then you have a bitter, negative attitude and i cannot help you.
< ArneBab> xor-freenet: you simply don’t understand. I will not waste any more time trying to teach you the difference between commits and features.11:38
<@xor-freenet> ArneBab: how about you just spare me the trust that i chose commits as atomic reasonable units of "new stuff" ?

ArneBab: and a changelog is about "new stuff"
< ArneBab> new stuff � features11:39
<@xor-freenet> ArneBab: for the record: i don't try to produce large amounts of commits, i try to produce atomic units of work which fit together reasonably

ArneBab: CHANGElog. new stuff = changed stuff.11:40
< RdrOfTheSt0rm> could we just split this info into a short and long changelog? would that help? short = basic info long = detailed info?11:41
< ArneBab> xor-freenet: I have no more interest in this discussion. You should take this as a warning that you are alienating people.
<@xor-freenet> RdrOfTheSt0rm: it already sort of tries to do that by document structure by splitting the document into the preamble chitchat talk and the "Changlog for users:" / "Changelog for developers", which is separated by two empty new lines11:42
ArneBab: you can have the same warning from me.
< ArneBab> xor-freenet: My income doesn’t depend on this.
<@xor-freenet> ArneBab: i precisely already told you that i asked my personal friends about whether they like commit commit in changelogs, you're ignoring that11:43
< ArneBab> xor-freenet: besides the point. it’s not about the NCOMMITS, it’s about the ncommits MORE THAN
<@xor-freenet> ArneBab: you're also ignoring that nobody else besides you complained about the changelog containing the amount. operhiem1 complained about the "good news" same as you
ArneBab: the good news has been removed.
< ArneBab> xor-freenet: operhiem1 complained about the MORE THAN EVER
* ArneBab out11:44
< ArneBab> please don’t highlight me for the next hour.
<@xor-freenet> "<operhiem1> [11:59:49] "this build includes more new commits than WOT *ever* consisted of as of the previous build" doesn't sound like good news to me. When I read that I think "and just IMAGINE all the bugs they introduce!""
* RdrOfTheSt0rm seems a little hot in here :)11:48
* xor-freenet 's next changelog will for sure be computer generated by git11:52
<@xor-freenet> :P
* RdrOfTheSt0rm leaves a bottle of wiskey/wine/whatever and glases on the table - hopes the devs will share it and relax11:54
<@xor-freenet> .... alright folks, here it is: WOT build0014 release candidate 2: http://localhost:8888/SSK@QeTBVWTwBldfI- lrF~xf0nqFVDdQoSUghT~PvhyJ1NE,OjEywGD063 La2H-IihD7iYtZm3rC0BP6UTvvwyF5Zh4,AQACAA E/WebOfTrust-build0014-rc02.zip there is no gnupg signature because i've inserted it with the SSK of my flog, which is in the default bookmarks. as SSKs are signed, you can just check whether the half of it before the "," matches my flog in the default bookmarks

the changelog and instructions how to test are included as text files in the zip

the freenet.jar which is needed to run it is also included11:55

RdrOfTheSt0rm: i think i might actually get drunk now :D :(12:03

first i need to post the stuff to devl and fms though12:04
< RdrOfTheSt0rm> @xor-freenet: :D .that freenet.jar is purge-db40?12:08
<@xor-freenet> RdrOfTheSt0rm: yes

RdrOfTheSt0rm: with some additional code needed for WOT
< RdrOfTheSt0rm> cool cheers12:13
<@xor-freenet> anyway, if anyone is still offended or not-offended by the changelog mentioning the commit count, please say so.... we can still change the changelog in the real release as this is a release canidate only anyway... albeit it would be quite strange to have a 3rd release candidate because we changed the changelog :) reminds me of the Chip 'n Dale Rescue Rangers episode where the crazy scientist guy built a "repair machine" which did the only job of12:31

repairing itself continously....

since operhiem1 doesn't respond, to get a chance to settle this, i've also asked ian whether he would include the commit count or not.... good old monarchy decision making has the advantage of having an end in sight at least12:35

"Sum of all edition numbers: 817621" anyone got a higher count?12:37
< TheSeeker> Sum of all edition numbers: 84807212:40
<@xor-freenet> thanks... took ~1 night to get from 400k to 800k

but i've limited it to 1 CPU core

maybe the whole stuff isn't even that fatally broken12:41

TheSeeker: http://localhost:8888/SSK@QeTBVWTwBldfI- lrF~xf0nqFVDdQoSUghT~PvhyJ1NE,OjEywGD063 La2H-IihD7iYtZm3rC0BP6UTvvwyF5Zh4,AQACAA E/WebOfTrust-build0014-rc02.zip12:42

actually i need to test whether this insert will work with a non-purge-db4o node12:43
< TheSeeker> why wouldn't it?12:45
<@xor-freenet> weren't there some bugs about that in purge-db4o?
< TheSeeker> several months ago...
<@xor-freenet> i've inserted with compat 1416, so it should hopefully
* xor-freenet checks anyway12:49
< rfree_prox> is there a changelog for the changelog >_>12:54

either way it is ok. Myself I would not it's "slow like hell"12:55
* xor-freenet starts the hysterical mix of laughter and desperation
<@xor-freenet> rfree_prox: thanks for reviewing.... the "as hell" has been removed already

rfree_prox: the current version is this: https://gist.github.com/xor-freenet/d414 57e17753eecf9bb312:56

rfree_prox: what was criticized is that it mentions the commit count at the start, because commits might not be an objective measurement of "whats new"; and also specifically it was criticized that the count is compared to the last release of WOT (i don't recall what was said to be wrong with that, or rather don't even understand what could be)12:57
< rfree_prox> xor-freenet, that version that is pending to be released, it will not load my node just because creating 2 IDs on it? Can it handle slow connections (the timeouts)?
<@xor-freenet> rfree_prox: hmm? did you try to load it and it is taking a very long time to load?

rfree_prox: the speed of the connection shouldn't cause any errors, but its possible that it overloads your node so that other stuff such as FMS doesn't get to download anything anymore12:58
< rfree_prox> afair just running WoT plugin, especially when test creating 3 IDs was heavy. I guess best just to try it, I will later. update.sh ?
< ArneBab> xor-freenet: I criticised that it COMPARED the commit count to the one before.12:59
< TheSeeker> nextgens: I was thinking about how to create a client application that allows a user to give a node some data to insert such that the node doesn't know what it's inserting, but it can still be fetched if you know the key.
< rfree_prox> TheSeeker, it is usable for "inserting" freesites on an offline computer and then moving the blob file to online computer? That is very interesting use case if it starts working tell me how to use it
<@xor-freenet> ArneBab: yes i know but i don't understand what is bad about comparing numbers13:00
rfree_prox: well just give it a try... it shouldn't be faster than the previous built until client app authors adapt their client apps to use the new API though.... update.sh won't work, download the zip and read the "Testing instructions"
rfree_prox: http://localhost:8888/SSK@QeTBVWTwBldfI- lrF~xf0nqFVDdQoSUghT~PvhyJ1NE,OjEywGD063 La2H-IihD7iYtZm3rC0BP6UTvvwyF5Zh4,AQACAA E/WebOfTrust-build0014-rc02.zip
(ok downloading the testing release also works with non-purge-db4o nodes!)13:01
< ArneBab> xor-freenet: operhiem1 got tripped up. nextgens got tripped up. I got tripped up. Do I really have to say any more? There is a point at which when you don’t understand something, you should just accept the input from others.
<@nextgens> TheSeeker> the client layer always knows what data is being inserted
< TheSeeker> think: shoeshop for phones... earlyencode the key(s) and generate an fblob -> hand flbob to dead drop server that auto-inserts blobs. no need for a full node, and the dead drop doesn't need to know anything about what it's inserting?
<@nextgens> the dead drop doesn't need to know13:02
<@xor-freenet> ArneBab: you are severely bending the truth with including the others in that list. they didn't even read the current version of it yet.
<@nextgens> but the person/node that has created the fblob does
< TheSeeker> nextgens: right, that would be done on th phone.
< ArneBab> xor-freenet: no need, since you kept the part over which we tripped.13:03
<@xor-freenet> ArneBab: i already incorporated like a handful of changes into the stuff from you, i removed the joke stuff, i even had a second release candidate just for you (which involved recompiling and re-zipping and re-inserting), and various other people have just read the stuff and not complained about the commits, maybe can you be satisfied at some point?
< TheSeeker> nextgens: It would be a heavy operation to be sure, but way nicer on battery life and data usage than trying to get a full node running. :)13:04
< ArneBab> xor-freenet: you left out the single most important change, which I’ve been trying to get to you literally for hours: Don’t brag about having much MORE commits than ever before.13:05
<@xor-freenet> your sole primary complaining was about the joke for like an hour or whatever
< ArneBab> xor-freenet: if you really want to keep on with this, please re-read. You even quoted from operhiem1 without seeing that the thing which tripped him was saying that more commits than ever before are good.13:06
<@xor-freenet> and the whole thing itself is getting kind of funny anyway: for years people have been annoying me to release, and now i want to release and people annoy me to stop because the changelog isn't good enough.... gosh13:07
< rfree_prox> can we flip a coin? if hex hash of block 347295 (https://blockexplorer.com/) is odd then we post commits count if even then not. Wait until block height 347298 to be sure no chainsplit and we have decided in an hour :)
<@xor-freenet> ArneBab: please go outside and explain this to a non-computer person.13:08
< ArneBab> xor-freenet: I even wrote a proposal which you could have simply pulled which removed the problematic parts (and did some polishing of the rest), but you insisted on re-adding the problematic stuff.
<@xor-freenet> ArneBab: bonus quest: non-male
< ArneBab> xor-freenet: if I would explain this to my wife, she’d ask me to tell ian to stop giving you money.
<@xor-freenet> because we're behaving like stonage territory defenders13:09
ArneBab: then explain it to her. or to anyone else. because we aren't going to get any further if we try to resolve this by talking to each other13:10
< ArneBab> I already explained it to someone. He answered: Fire him.

(and added “I don’t understand why you waste time on him”)13:11
<@xor-freenet> fine, then demand to fire me because i enumerated the amount of work i did.
in a perfectly computer-validatable way.
(and even more validatable than the amount of hours which i gave you, and which you suggested as a replacement for the commit amount)13:12
< ArneBab> ^ I did not suggest that. I said 6 month, because that’s the time when you started till now.

xor-freenet: you’re sulking.
<@xor-freenet> you're preventing me from working.13:13
< ArneBab> xor-freenet: you wanted me to ask someone. I already did. You do not like the answer I got. Why are you sulking?
< rfree_prox> it's like people discussing freedom versus democracy oh god
* rfree_prox doesn't care much either way as watches how code and features improve13:14
* taylanub finds https://github.com/freenet/plugin-WebOfT rust/releases/tag/build0014-rc01 perfectly fine, from the first 4-5 paragraphs13:15
< rfree_prox> most people will appreciate the changes in code. Haters gonna hate ignore them. If we (developers, people paying the money for R&D) know that research is going to soonish bring fast WoT functionality then good.13:16
< ArneBab> taylanub: this was the proposal I wrote yesterday to avoid comparing commit-count and avoid saying good news/bad news: https://gist.github.com/ArneBab/82d5bfcd 7f1133106c8713:17
< taylanub> (don't know the how manieth revision that is which I linked...)
< TheSeeker> "13:18
There are no WoT identities! There must be at least one to use FlogHelper.
"
* TheSeeker kicks wot
<@xor-freenet> TheSeeker: thats normal for now, timeout happens if WOT is busy, FlogHelper thinks there are no identities..... will be fixed by adapting FlogHelper to use event-notifications13:19
TheSeeker: (event-notifications is not subject to timeout since WOT pushes the data)
< rfree_prox> xor-freenet, so it worked, entire API has an push version where the WoT engine notifies the plugins?13:22
<@xor-freenet> rfree_prox: yes the "event-notiftications" API is fully implemented, and tested to a significant level as well.13:23
< rfree_prox> cool13:24
< taylanub> ArneBab: I think "good news bad news" is fine, especially given it explains the "bad news" to be that people just need to wait a little longer for the work to truly pay off. other than that, mentioning commits doesn't seem actively bad to me, whereas hype like "insane amount of code quality improvements" sounds a little obnoxious... it's bikeshedding, but in general I'd prefer the voice of the13:39
honest/humble programmer than that of the manipulative marketer, though that might be just me
2 cents and I'm out
< ArneBab> taylanub: the “insane amount” was not from me

I tried to make the minimal change13:40
< taylanub> ok
<@xor-freenet> taylanub: i agree about "insane", this was removed in the rc2 changelog

taylanub: it now says "There is a very large amount of code quality improvements and bugfixes."13:41

taylanub: (rc2 changelog = version of 3 hours ago)13:42

taylanub: (and also the one which i want to keep as is)

taylanub: https://github.com/freenet/plugin-WebOfT rust/releases/tag/build0014-rc02
< ArneBab> taylanub: what I did was remove good news/bad news, the commit-count comparison (replaced by “6 months” to ensure that people don’t think that it started years ago) and removed “Even though the primary purpose of this build is to alleviate the performance issues, it will still be slow as hell” and “sorry that this isn’t the ultimate performance fix yet”.13:45
(short: https://gist.github.com/ArneBab/82d5bfcd 7f1133106c87/revisions )
in essence: I removed the parts which spell failure or suggest that code was produced for the sake of producing code.13:47
this should not have triggered an hour long discussion, but rather “ok, you, operhiem1 and nextgens say that this is problematic. I know that I’m not that socially adept, so I’ll just trust your judgement and do it.”13:49
<@xor-freenet> "suggest that code was produced for the sake of producing code." thats nowhere in the changelog, that is what you read into it, and probably the reason why we don't understand each other.
< ArneBab> xor-freenet: that’s what saying “more commits than ever before” suggests.
xor-freenet: you don’t see it, but others do.
<@xor-freenet> "the apple farm has produced more apples in 2015 than ever produced before".... does that say anything about the reason or the quality of the apples?13:50

it says how many apples were produced.

nothing more
< ArneBab> and that’s completely useless information for someone who wants to buy an apple
⇒ cut it out
it might even be a warning that the quality of the apples dropped13:51
<@xor-freenet> if i have induced a negative attitude in you which makes you believe that i only produce code for producing code, then i am sorry for that. but this does not mean that its the truth.
< ArneBab> xor-freenet: please stop speculating what I think about YOU when I talk about what images your text can produce: You are not your text.
<@xor-freenet> again: a CHANGElog is supposed to say what CHANGED. a commit is the atomic unit of change. thus, mentioning the amount of commits is mentioning the amount of changes. the amount of changes is a pretty sane thing to mention in a changelog. if i read a changelog, i want to know whether it is worth bothering to install it. if there is a small amount of changes, i don't bother to install. if there is a large amount of changes, i might try it again.13:52
< taylanub> let's .. flip a coin?13:53
< ArneBab> xor-freenet: then stick to the changes and leave out the commits existing before the changes.13:54
<@xor-freenet> ArneBab: now its time to cite the changelog itself: "Notice: The changelogs exclude a LOT of the actual changes. This is because the development of this build took a very long time, and thus to speed up the release, I produced the changelog from the bugtracker instead of reviewing the whole amount of the 1800 commits. So what had no bugtracker entry is likely not included."13:55
< ArneBab> xor-freenet: there are three things I asked of you for the changelog: don’t compare to the previous commits, don’t say good news/bad news, don’t say that the release had the goal to make WoT fast.

xor-freenet: no one complained about anything past the first 4 paragraphs.13:56
<@xor-freenet> ArneBab: what i just cited is actually the primary reason why the amount of commits needs to be in there: since we have no time for having me review all 1800 commit messages, we're dropping information with that. so we ought to at least mention the amount of commits to not completely forget about htem
< ArneBab> xor-freenet: you don’t explain why anyone needs to be told the number of commits existing before.13:57
<@xor-freenet> ArneBab: "if i read a changelog, i want to know whether it is worth bothering to install it. if there is a small amount of changes, i don't bother to install. if there is a large amount of changes, i might try it again."
ArneBab: "small" and "large" only exist when comparing things
< ArneBab> xor-freenet: or do you want to say “this is a complete rewrite”? People would instantly flaggelate you with Things you should never do, Part I: http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/f og0000000069.html13:59
<@xor-freenet> ArneBab: did i say that?14:00
ArneBab: no.
< ArneBab> xor-freenet: no, but it would be the only reason to include the previous commit count, when that commit count is smaller than the commit counts in the changes.14:01

xor-freenet: and for the large amount of changes: In the following lines you say “you won’t see any improvement, yet, wait for the next releases” ← blocks anything you could get from the comparison.14:02
< rfree_prox> ArneBab, xor (in my opinion) wants to just say something so people will not complain too much "why this is not DONE yet", he wants to show that at least he put in some work. I think most users will not care about change log too much either way. Users look at features, investors/donors at features and maybe R&D
<@xor-freenet> xor wants to fulfill his obligation of fixing the damn WOT. part of that obligation is being obliged to report to the community that i am DOING my work. part of proving that is showing them numbers.14:04
< ArneBab> rfree_prox: I see that. But that’s no reason to include things which are plain stupid to say in the conclusion of 6 months of work.
<@xor-freenet> they deserve to know whats happening and why it is taking so long

and because performance cant be fixed yet, they ought to at least have some prove that work IS being done

commit amount is the only proof i have at hand
< ArneBab> xor-freenet: but no one requires a proof from you. You have features to show.14:05
xor-freenet: especially not in the introduction.
xor-freenet: people who read past the first 4 paragraphs see the commit count (because no one complained about that: it’s where it belongs)14:06
<@xor-freenet> i could also mention the fact that the lines of code are now 30 000 compared to the 18 000 before. but guess what: (1461+1800) / 1461 = 223 % more commits.... 30000 / 18000 = 167 % more code.... thats not a huge difference ... replacing it with the LOC would be just a linear change

and no, i did NOT compute the percentages BEFORE, i just saw this14:07
< ArneBab> could you fucking stop comparing?
“compared to” ← THAT is what has to go.
<@xor-freenet> well excuse me for feeling obliged to provide solid proof in numbers to people instead of a bendable rubber textual changelog14:08
< ArneBab> and yes, I am swearing, because today you managed to test the limits of my patience.
<@xor-freenet> have you considered the fact that i might also have a limit of patience? you know what the problem of being employed for a open source project is? i cannot fire volunteers. you can misbehave all you want. thats a HUGE assymetry of power14:09

i am obliged to have to put up with this every day

tomorrow i need to continue writing code.14:10
< ArneBab> [15:10:50] <xor-freenet> (and just for the record: i do NOT exclude myself at this. my social skills DO suck.)
^ if you say that, then just accept it when others tell you that you should change something for social reasons.
<@xor-freenet> lol.
< ArneBab> xor-freenet: yet the one who throws a huge tantrum instead of just implementing 3 small changes in an area for which you admit that your skills suck.14:11
<@xor-freenet> you are literally insulting me for quoting objectively measureable numbers for like hours and tell me that my social skills suck right now
< ArneBab> xor-freenet: I quoted YOU.14:12
<@xor-freenet> oh cmon
< ArneBab> no
you wasted hours of time instead of fucking accepting a 3 line change to the changelog
<@xor-freenet> we really play the "i imply something without actually saying it and then make fun of you for reacting to it" game now?` like in 8th grade?14:13
< ArneBab> no, we don’t.
we’re playing the “I try to help you avoid haters and you insult me for that”-game.
* nextgens slides a coin in the jukebox14:15
<@nextgens> would be terrible if the music stopped here, I'm not out of popcorn yet14:16
< rfree_prox> this is how I see the changelog: http://s3.amazonaws.com/theoatmeal-img/c omics/state_web_winter/html.jpg
<@xor-freenet> jukebox starts playing: https://youtu.be/zjedLeVGcfE?t=11s14:18
- WOT release done, everybody angry. just as i expected :D14:20
< rfree_prox> xor-freenet, I am happy that things moved forward14:21
<@xor-freenet> rfree_prox: thanks :)14:22
< rfree_prox> will this be released soonish as next official version when operhiem1 pushes it, or do you wait for testers input or anything?14:46
<@xor-freenet> rfree_prox: i'd say give it a week14:48
rfree_prox: there are other blockers blocking purge-db4o right now
rfree_prox: personally, i'll be fixing https://bugs.freenetproject.org/view.php ?id=6384 the next days, should be less than a week of work for sure, and i'd really like it to be in the release14:49
rfree_prox: also, not all official plugins have been adapted to be purge-db4o compatible yet AFAIK.... purge-db4o causes compiling issues, so we cannot ship them as is15:01
< qwebirc25494> ''Freenet initializator was unable to connect to Freenet node at port 8888'' , a little help here ??17:08
< rfree_prox> qwebirc25494, when this happens? what os?17:10
< ArneBab> qwebirc25494: which operating system do you use? Windows/MacOSX/Linux?
< qwebirc25494> windows 8
< ArneBab> qwebirc25494: when you open a browser at http://127.0.0.1:8888/ does it show Freenet?
< qwebirc25494> Freenet worker here but i unnistalled this and now i'm trying to reinstall but aint working now :/17:11
Any browser ?
With google chrome it dont show freenet
< ArneBab> ok, then Freenet isn’t running
< qwebirc25494> How do I solve it ?17:12
< ArneBab> did you uninstall right now or before the last restart of the computer?
< qwebirc25494> Both , i unistall yesterday before restarting and i redo the process now but didnt work17:13
< ArneBab> did it remove the freenet folder?
< qwebirc25494> Yeah17:14
< ArneBab> what does the installer show?

did you get it from https://freenetproject.org?
< qwebirc25494> Yes I downloaded by there17:15
And ran it as admin
The installer and the freenet
Do you know what i can do to solve it ?17:17
< ArneBab> are you running it as admin right now?17:19

can you try running it without being admin?
< qwebirc25494> Ok ill try
< ArneBab> I don’t use Windows myself (GNU/Linux here), so I’m partly guessing

(and trying to remember solutions)
< qwebirc25494> Ah ok , thanks17:20
Looks like did the same thing
Was unable to connect
< rfree_prox> there should be log file somewhere17:21
<@nextgens> qwebirc25494> ensure there's no accent or special character in the path where you're installing it17:22
if there is it will fail (and that's a known bug that we will address)17:23
< qwebirc25494> My path C:\Users\Adiministrador\AppData\Local\Fr eenet17:24
<@nextgens> must be something else then
please pastebin your wrapper.log file somewhere17:25
< qwebirc25494> pastbin ?
<@nextgens> http://pastebin.com/17:28
< ArneBab> I need to get going…17:29

cu
< rfree_prox> nextgens, should it be installed as admin on windows? Path looks from adm install. Maybe uninstall and then install as user, and run as user?17:36
<@nextgens> I think it should work as both user and admin17:38

on *nix we try to prevent people from using root though
< qwebirc25494> It dont work here even with user or admin
But before i unistall ( about 2 months ago ) it work with just user17:39
< rfree_prox> qwebirc25494, maybe you should total uninstall it, and then install it as user, so it will be installed in other path like C:/Users/yourname/
< qwebirc25494> But the "my name" here is the "Adiministrador"17:40
< rfree_prox> ok I assumed ""Adiministrador" means administrator in some language or something.

qwebirc25494, so your regular user has his files in patch C:\Users\Adiministrador\ right?17:41
< qwebirc25494> Yeah , ''amiministrador'' is administrator but in brazilian portuguese17:42
Yeah but now i reinstalled it in other path but didint work17:43
< rfree_prox> qwebirc25494, post here the pastebin.com link after you pasted there your wrapper log as it was said above17:44
< qwebirc25494> How do i past my wrapper log to pastebin ?17:45
http://pastebin.com/wRGTRYak17:50
< n1qn4q> dont mix your freenet install into the windows folders17:51

better use \freenet\ on some drive
<@nextgens> "Unable to execute Java command. O sistema não pode encontrar o arquivo especificado. (0x2)"17:52
< n1qn4q> we have seen countless troubles and woes in the past
<@nextgens> "C:\Program Files\Java\jre1.8.0_31\bin\java.exe" doesn't exist
< n1qn4q> freenet can still not deal with intl characters in pathnames according to recent bugreports and all the file access right trouble on windows and all that shit

why are we wasting our times with elementary shit as this, user doesnt even have java installed17:55

seriously. bump people to faq or basic install infos and kickban these type of people instead of guys that at least have succeeded in making freenet work as a minimum quality level17:56
< qwebirc25494> I installed java
And put there
< n1qn4q> maybe 64bit or whatever
< qwebirc25494> What left to do ?
< n1qn4q> uninstall java8 and stay with java7 max, 32bit

http://www.oracle.com/technetwork/java/j avase/downloads/jre7-downloads-1880261.h tml17:57

windows is such a messy platform, its amazing
< qwebirc25494> My point is , that i already had the java installed and that path wasnt missing , but freenet said it was , and thats my problem dude17:58
Ok ill install it
< n1qn4q> rule of thumb for winblows users should be: kiss, keep it simple stupid. install into a basic \freenet\ path and not into given windows structures of any kind, dont mess with 64bit, and stick with exactly java7 of incumbend (oracle) and dont use special characters or internationalisiation17:59

"C:\Program Files\Java\jre1.8.0_31\bin\java.exe" --version

what does that output

"C:\Program Files\Java\jre1.8.0_31\bin\java.exe" -version18:00

even
< qwebirc25494> http://pastebin.com/5GjMaDwS ( after correcting the path )18:01
Oh dude now it worked after install the java you sent me , thanks bro18:05
And looks like doesnt matter run with or without admin
That wasnt the problem was just install the other java18:06
< rfree_prox> qwebirc25494, so you had wrong version of java?
< qwebirc25494> Looks like was this , idk18:08
But i just install an older java
< rfree_prox> ok good to know. Glad that it works for you now, qwebirc25494
< qwebirc25494> And is working now
Thanks for the assist
< rfree_prox> qwebirc25494, in Freenet, checkout FMS
< n1qn4q> problem is that soon now java7 will be end of life
i think its april or may
and people are even these days and in recent months bumped over to java8 by oracle18:09
< rfree_prox> qwebirc25494, in Freenet, checkout FMS - freenet message system, it's quite cool thing. Wait a month or more before creating real ID used for real stuff or people can time-correlate you. This is very safe and good secure chat
< n1qn4q> and freenet still hasnt tested all this and apparently we run into problems with it
< qwebirc25494> FMS is realy safe ?
< rfree_prox> qwebirc25494, the link to it is on the :8888 home page. Best of luck. If you like darknet also try out i2p it is a "sister project" of freenet in a way. http://geti2p.net
< qwebirc25494> So maybe in april or may ill have the same problem again '-.-18:10
< rfree_prox> qwebirc25494, I checked it code a bit, I think it is quite safe. Nothing is perfect so do not announce there like plans to kill all the communists in EU or selling uranium ;)
< qwebirc25494> ill try it thanks

And i wont kk18:11

anoounce this type of things kk
< rfree_prox> nextgens, to be sure just checked; Current Freenet does work well on oracle java 8 update 40, 64 bit, windows 7 home premium service pack 1. So probably just user error18:31
* rfree_prox washes hands18:32
< n1qn4q> windows basic requirements (kiss principle): simple pathnames (e.g. \freenet\, no nesting into predefined windows folders and shit), no special chars (say good bye to localisation), always java7 32bit from oracle18:36
 -!- mode/#freenet [+o toad_] by ChanServ21:22
< qwebirc11983> how to have more than 10 nodes in open net?22:02
no one?22:04