--- Log opened Wed Mar 11 00:00:13 2015
<@xor-freenet> <ArneBab> [10:35:12] xor-freenet: does the importer now discard the bad ID or reset its score?"" hmm seems like i didn't make this clear enough: the said issue did NOT affect trusts or scores in any way. this was merely about importing things such as nicknames, properties, contexts04:35

" <n1qn4q> [10:46:17] just a little while ago there was someone banned for saying he was trying to get censored books via freenet" it is not OK if people come here asking to download stuff which is typically copyrighted, and books is such stuff. the topic even specifically forbids copyright infringement questions, which i also put into the kick message04:54

"<operhiem1> [11:59:49] "this build includes more new commits than WOT *ever* consisted of as of the previous build" doesn't sound like good news to me. When I read that I think "and just IMAGINE all the bugs they introduce!"" the opposite of what you criticise here would me billing freenet months of work for an infinitesimal, ridiculously small amount of commits. would you prefer that to me being productive? what are you trying to achieve here?05:18

do you think it is helping the project if i cannot even tell people that i was productive anymore without getting insulted? :(

operhiem1: i also doubt that there is any specific indication of WOT being very prone to high amount of bugs. the changelog even specificially lists significant improvements in the unit testing framework..

"<ArneBab> [12:00:55] xor-freenet: to add to that: I think the humor in “good news and bad news” will not fall on fertile ground." same question: what are you trying to achieve here? want me to become deadly serious and not even make a joke anymore? :)05:19

"<operhiem1> [12:01:14] If there's a good reason to bundle we can talk about it. I just don't want to accumulate even more maintenance burden for the base package." it is a huge honor if people do work for free for other humans. by volunteering to write the stuff, they deserve that we put it to use.05:20

operhiem1: also, this project isn't going to ever succeed if all we do about new contributions is ignore them or even delete their repositories because we ignored them for too long, as it has happened recently. this is a huge discouragement to possible volunteers.05:21

operhiem1: thanks for providing the thaw code, i will deal with removing authorship of jflesch so it can be put up again

<operhiem1> [13:31:51] The team did not transfer - they said they'd copy it over but have failed to do so." hmm this sounds like something to mail the administrators of tansifex about?05:27

" <operhiem1> [13:42:13] When I filled out the transfer form, when I submitted it I got a message saying that admin/translation teams would not transfer. I mentioned this to my contact in OTF, who assured me that it would." ok this is definitely something to mail the admins about, this is an attack.... :(05:28

operhiem1: about pyfreenet/making more stuff official, some more ideas: 1) it shouldn't be much maintenance overhead to just stick the stuff into a "tools/" directory in the installation, should it? it doesn't have to be linked into the start menu or anything since its not a guy. maybe it should be mentioned in a README, but thats about it :) 2) i fully acknolwedge that my job formally is to deal with client application management, and thus i05:35

should just do such stuff myself instead of annoying you about it. i don't mention this every time because i feel like most people want me to fix WOT first before i start dealing with maintaining other client apps

operhiem1: not a guy = not a gui05:36

operhiem1: i guess if you don't feel like doing this, we can just postpone it until i have the time? would require you to accept me / arnebab as a code reviewer though, since someone should official review the whole thing again as it is the moment is deployed...05:37

operhiem1: please know that overall i feel sorry that i annoyed you to a level where a huge amount of WOT work to be deployed doesn't sound like good news anymore :( however a hostile work environment doesn't help any of us, be it because i cause it or because you do, so please try to stay focused on how we can work together productively, i promise also to try that :)05:42
 -!- mode/#freenet [+o infinity0_] by ChanServ05:45
<@xor-freenet> operhiem1: <ArneBab> [22:11:35] xor-freenet: video chat: jitsi05:57

"<operhiem1> [14:28:35] Thoughts on https://github.com/freenet/fred/pull/338 would be appreciated." thanks that you bothered to write this up :) i think its OK. you maybe could spare yourself from telling people not to micro-optimize, you don't have to bother with teaching them programming, we can assume that they know how to do so. you might just replace this with a link to a "software-engineering best practices" page06:04

operhiem1: random google results, without any claim for completeness or being the best possible results: http://www.d.umn.edu/~gshute/softeng/pri nciples.html http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Best_coding _practices06:06

operhiem1: oh and also, i specifically recently improved this wiki page to help new contributors: https://wiki.freenetproject.org/Projects so you might link it at the "Welcome" section06:09

ArneBab_: i've nevertheless amended the section with the performance stuff with a "Sorry ... " paragraph: https://gist.github.com/xor-freenet/aa65 1d1c71427fccdb6f/revisions07:25

here's a draft of the request for testing / instructions how to test for the WOT release candidate: https://gist.github.com/xor-freenet/7913 faede9cdf4d470db ( ArneBab_ thats what you requested! :)07:52

operhiem1: added more about the new unit tests to the changelog draft due to your concerns about bugs :) https://gist.github.com/xor-freenet/aa65 1d1c71427fccdb6f/revisions07:55
< TheSeeker> :D I finally found a copy of FMB still around on the internets machine! it's outdated, alpha4a (0.4.?) whereas the latest version was 0.5.4 ... but it does have the integrated chess support there in the source...08:51
<@xor-freenet> WOT test run 3 of 6 finished.08:56

TheSeeker: FMB?
< TheSeeker> Freenet Message Board ... ooooold message system. :)09:03
found the copy here: http://pws.winstonsmith.org/freenet.html
<@xor-freenet> TheSeeker: screenshot? :) is this a KSK-queue think such as frost?09:04
< TheSeeker> It's a Freenet 0.3 application, it would require a lot of work to make it compatible with 0.7 ...09:10
<@xor-freenet> i'm just curious :)09:12
< TheSeeker> IIRC, it's a lot closer to FMS than it is to Frost, as each ID posts messages under its own keyspace, with the board name the message belongs to as metadata. the announcement queue was done via KSK though, I think (like FLIP is now?) this would probably be adapted to use WoT instead.
The main thing I remember of FMB from back in those days is that you could play chess with people through that UI.09:13
<@xor-freenet> haha09:14

imagine all the honesty in insults in multiplayer games which are not only multiplayer games but also anonymous09:15
< TheSeeker> People on Freenet in the 0.3 days were a lot nicer. Kindof like newsgroups before AOL.09:16
<@xor-freenet> mhm well i think people on FMS are sort of nice actually. i would have expected every reply i post in threads about WOT to get severely harassed by "ITS DEAD SLOW FIX IT DAMNIT" but that didn't actually happen since i started using fms again some months ago09:18
< Dizzle> Frosters alwauys impatient
< TheSeeker> hey, fmb does actually start. ti dies right away because there's no FCPv1 port open and it can't create an identity, but I can pause main execution and get some screenshots of the empty interface :)09:20

Is nacktschneck still around? >_>09:26
<@xor-freenet> WOT test run 4 of 6 finished09:45
WOT test run 5 of 6 finished10:24
no problems so far :)
< ArneBab_> xor-freenet: I personally don’t care about number of commits, and I prefer less code. What I care about is whether the code solves the problems. But I don’t think operhiem1 wanted to insult you, just state that the amount of code is no criterium for success.10:32
<@xor-freenet> ArneBab_: of number of commits does not *guarantee* anything, but it is a direct indicator for the amount of work done :) i think its strange if people complain that other people did too much work.10:35
ArneBab_: but yes, i probably overreacted to operhiem1's complaint again. i am getting really stressed by all of the release pressure. i will be very very happy when it is finally out :)10:36
< ArneBab_> xor-freenet: there’s a metric for average number of bugs: about one per 2k lines of code. References (though to be taken with a grain of salt, because we’re not a company): http://www.mayerdan.com/ruby/2012/11/11/ bugs-per-line-of-code-ratio/ http://programmers.stackexchange.com/a/1 85684/35058
<@xor-freenet> ArneBab_: i have a direct solution to all our problems then: delete all code. no code, no bugs!10:37
ArneBab_: also, given that this probably translates to reallife as will such as "number of problems is proportional to number of hours lived" i suggest we kill ourselves now :)
< ArneBab_> xor-freenet: for bundling: I’d prefer not getting honor when it reduces the maintenance burden. To help people find pyFreenet, the best way would be to have a Freesite and link it in the bookmarks.11:00
* ArneBab_ is still in backlog
< ArneBab_> xor-freenet: it would be nice if the exact wording of your job description could be found somewhere (maybe on the people page?).11:01

TheSeeker: chess on Freenet 0.3… why did we break that?11:03

xor-freenet: what we need is least number of lines of readable/reviewable code per feature.11:04

there’s no perfect solution - too few lines and the code is likely to be unreadable, too many lines and the sheer volume makes it hard to understand - but it’s possible to define the goal as striving towards a shifting optimum.11:05

(shifting, because it changes with task, project size and people)
<@Bombe> I remember FMB but I was too late for Freenet 0.3. :)11:06
< ArneBab_> xor-freenet: be careful not to mistake LOC or commit count and work hours.

Bombe: same for me…11:07

(though I don’t remember it…)

(=me too late)

TheSeeker: maybe you could ask around whether someone still has a newer version of FMB11:08

it’s a shame that we’re throwing featureful stuff away…

I just learned that we don’t have an FCP message for n2n messages. When we change that, the dev of the icicle android app would (plan to) add n2n support: using freenet to keep in contact with your friend via android.11:18

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fm7UIMxI Iz0

boils down to https://bugs.freenetproject.org/view.php ?id=85011:19
<@xor-freenet> " <ArneBab_> [11:01:44] xor-freenet: it would be nice if the exact wording of your job description could be found somewhere (maybe on the people page?)." there's no formal written down thing. we discussed this on #freenet-dev when i was hired. the basic point in hiring me was that we've paid someone for a decade to deal with the freenet core, while completely neglecting the client applications. so it was thought to be a good idea to have someone13:17
whose primary goal is to get as many of the existing client applications out as official as possible. this is also why i'm annoying people to deploy them while i'm busy with fixing WOT (well, which also is a client app :)
ArneBab_: i'd put my job description simply as "Client application maintainer" :)
ArneBab_: i'll push for allocating some percentage of my work hours to other client apps as soon as WOT performance has improved a bit i guess... maybe after the bachelor thesis would be a good idea, as that will deal with the core score computation suckage13:19
< ArneBab_> xor-freenet: so there is no formal job description?13:21
<@xor-freenet> ArneBab_: this is one of the things which i for sure don't remember wrong
ArneBab_: i know what i'm supposed to do :)
< ArneBab_> xor-freenet: I remember that there were repeated arguments about that, so it’s important to note that there is none.13:23
<@xor-freenet> ArneBab_: well yes for the record we didn't write anything down. but i think the general idea that having one person deal with freenet client apps while someone else such as toad deals with the core is something we can agree on?13:24
 -!- mode/#freenet [+o infinity0] by ChanServ
<@xor-freenet> ArneBab_: pyFreenet bundled or not, its a shame that we have Thaw/Sone/Freemail/FlogHelper/Freetalk/e tc all half finished but none of them installed by default13:25
< ArneBab_> Well, except for Thaw all of that rests on WoT

I think in general we need paid developers. And until WoT is fast, we need you focussed on WoT.13:27

fast and scalable13:28
<@xor-freenet> ArneBab_: about whether commits are a reasonable measure of amount of work: fred lines of code / commits = 237681/28841 ~= 8.2 ... WOT lines of code / commits = 25271/3265 ~= 7.7 .... the fred average divided by the WOT average shows that the delta is roughly 6.5 %13:29
ArneBab_: and yes, i fully agree that WOT is the top priority right now :)
ArneBab_: what i want to say with those numbers: even though fred and WOT were mostly written by different people, their LOC/commit count is about the same, which IMHO shows that commits average out to the same size usually, so they do measure productivity :)13:30
< ArneBab_> xor-freenet: for amount of work: that’s not what counts. What counts is the amount of features.13:31

Commits show activity, not productivity.

(at least if you use productivity as providing features for the project)
<@xor-freenet> ArneBab_: its not like i am claiming that i want to be billed by the commit count. its just interesting chitchat. please lets don't waste our time with discussing this to death13:32
ArneBab_: i know for sure that this can vary a lot and that i wasn't being productive if i develop a horse while people asked for a plane. i'm not 5 years old :)
< ArneBab_> xor-freenet: I like seeing the daily commit count. It shows activity.
<@xor-freenet> ArneBab_: :)13:33
btw, starting the final 6th test run of WOT build0014-rc01 now13:34
< ArneBab_> xor-freenet: I just don’t think that the metric should be shown like a trophy in the release notes, because as operhiem1 said, many people will actually see that as a problem.
<@xor-freenet> ArneBab_: it *is* a fact.13:35
< ArneBab_> re test: nice!

xor-freenet: it is a fact, but not useful to include - rather counterproductive. No need to make people focus on how long it took.13:36
<@xor-freenet> ArneBab_: and to be honest, if someone else was working for like half a year on the damn thing for purposes of improving performance while knowing that the results will not be immediately visible, which is a quite non-fun work to do, i would grant the person the pleasure to at least excuse himself towards the community by showing a number which is a rough measure of amount of work put into it so people at least can know frm the numbers that13:37
something did happen during the half-year of work, if its not possible to prove by benchmarks right now
< ArneBab_> we know that: Put the descriptions of features in there.13:38

just don’t give the haters cannon fodder
<@xor-freenet> ArneBab_: this is not only about the readers but you also need to concern that i'm a human being who has the desire to show people that i'm trustworthy, and proving by numbers that i *did* write code instead of doing nothing is part of that13:39
ArneBab_: also, you don't have to put every single action of mine on a scale please
< ArneBab_> then provide a developer note as Anhang: a diffstat
<@xor-freenet> ArneBab_: if the commit count was fake that would be a valid complaint but this really is a waste of time.13:40
< ArneBab_> xor-freenet: operhiem1, who supports you, stumbled over the commits. Imagine how people who are already pissed will react. This is not about you.
<@xor-freenet> "<ArneBab_> then provide a developer note as Anhang: a diffstat" like there is any difference in replacing one amount of code measurement with a linear function of it!?!?13:41
can you please give the xor guy some peace!? just for once? :)13:42
its not like the changelog draft claims "THIS BUILD IS THE BEST BUILD EVER". the part about the amount of commits is *immediately* followed by self-bashing.13:43
its already disappointing enough to have to release months worth of work with a self-bashing changelog13:44
if you want to take the involved person away the possibily to at least excuse himself towards everyone by mentioning the commit count, and degrade it to a fully-self-bashing changelog, fine. but do you think this improves how i feel as a person?13:45
WOT sucks. i know. but i'm not a punching bag.
i know that my general emotional attitude towards everyone and everything in the project right now is *very* biased by the whole stress. but yours is starting to get biased as well IMHO. you're viewing the commit count thing from a perspective of someone who has suffered through a hell lot of annoying discussions with xor on this channel. a neutral person who hasn't been through this would read over the commit count sentence in a few seconds and13:51
forget it another few seconds again. i mean come one, if you read a change log, and it says how many commits the build includes, would you care? sun is shining outside, and you'd get all enraged about a commit amount? which is a *fact* anyway, the commits *do* exist?
i'm usually not even fully awake when i read changelogs :D14:01
<@Bombe> Huh. I managed to break my Sone. NPEs everywhere.
<@xor-freenet> and care more about the temperature of my coffee. i wouldn't even care if they put a graph of the commit count into it.
< ArneBab_> xor-freenet: proposal: https://gist.github.com/ArneBab/82d5bfcd 7f1133106c8714:14

xor-freenet: note that I also cut out the self-bashing. That’s not appropriate in release notes.14:15

I’m tempted to also cut out the “Sorry”

xor-freenet: most people reading this won’t be neutral, so please take the PR advise and cut out the hate triggers.14:16
<@xor-freenet> ArneBab_: "<ArneBab_> [...] so please take the PR advise and cut out the hate triggers." "<ArneBab_> I’m tempted to also cut out the “Sorry”" this is EXACTLY what i mean when i say that you're getting emotionally biased. if "Sorry" triggers hate at you, then your attitude is the problem :)14:18
ArneBab_: please just let me say sorry to the users if i feel sorry. whats the big deal? seriously?
< ArneBab_> xor-freenet: I’m not talking about my triggers.14:19
<@xor-freenet> ArneBab_: i mean thanks for bothering to write a suggested improvement, but do we really need to get to the point where we start forking changelogs? do you want me to file a pull request and wait for 100 people to review it as well? :) can't we finally just get this build out without wasting hours of time on menial throwaway text files?
< ArneBab_> xor-freenet: we discussed about 5x longer than I needed to improve the changelog.14:20
<@xor-freenet> cam14:21
can someone else who isn't involved in the daily flamewars please review ArneBab_'s changes to the changelog and tell me whether they are really necessary to prevent people from getting seriously angry from the changelog? https://gist.github.com/ArneBab/82d5bfcd 7f1133106c87/revisions
< ArneBab_> and this textfile is not throwaway. It is your report to the community on what you did. Having triggers in there is a no-go
<@xor-freenet> triggers. fffs. what "triggers" me is watching the daily news about how many people were killed in the ukraine. not a damn commit amount. :|14:22
< ArneBab_> xor-freenet: one important question: how many months did you actually spend on this? (18 is a guess)
<@xor-freenet> ArneBab_: 6.5 months14:24
ArneBab_: of half-time work
ArneBab_: 490 hours14:25
ArneBab_: +/- a month of work since i just excluded the invoice which overlaps the previous build14:26
ArneBab_: ah wait thats wrong14:27
ArneBab_: 866 hours.14:28
ArneBab_: excluding current month
ArneBab_: but i do thinkt mentioning the commit count is fairer since it measures the amount of stuff which i produced, not the amount of time i invested. i.e. the commit count is more about what was delivered than about my personal endeavours14:29
<@nextgens> what counts as far as the community is concerned is how far it got us14:30

not the amount of time you've spent and/or billed for

nor how many commits that represents
<@xor-freenet> well i could say its 30 000 LOC now and was 18 000 before
<@nextgens> that's what I'm saying: as long as it's not deployed it amounts to zero, nada

in the corporate world, stuff we don't make profit from is R&D and clearly labelled as such14:31

no matter how great it is, it's not the long-term strategy
<@xor-freenet> if you tell me how i can write a changelog by FMS which changes itself at the moment it is delivered from displaying 0 to somethign else, i will do that. but as far as i know, we forbid javascript in client paps.14:32
< ArneBab_> with the changes I added, I’d ack this changelog: https://gist.github.com/ArneBab/82d5bfcd 7f1133106c87 — please ask others, too. Both trophy-counting commits and self bashing are inappropriate. I understand your need to show that you did a lot, but those will not get you there.14:33

(a change from 18 months to 6 months is on its way)
<@nextgens> but more generally speaking, if the project only got 900 (rounding up) hours from you in 18+ months, it's the wrong tool for the job14:34
inflation costs
< ArneBab_> nextgens: it’s 6 months

nextgens: the 18 months were just a guess from me which I’m correcting ATM
<@xor-freenet> the months are more than 6
< ArneBab_> fixed: https://gist.github.com/ArneBab/82d5bfcd 7f1133106c87
<@xor-freenet> FPI isn't paying the fact that i couldn't work for half a year due to health issues.14:35
which isn't a normal work contract either. its pretty cheap if employees are screwed if they cannot work due to health issues. definitely not the normal deal in germany.
<@nextgens> whether it's paying or not is irrelevant imho

as long as we have the money we should try to get you some help
<@xor-freenet> what are you trying to achieve here?
with this discussion?
you've already managed to destroy the day for me i can tell you14:36
if you want to punch some more, go on
< ArneBab_> xor-freenet: did you read the updated changelog proposal? https://gist.github.com/ArneBab/82d5bfcd 7f1133106c87
<@nextgens> xor-freenet> I'm not trying to punch anyone here14:37
<@xor-freenet> ArneBab_: no, i was focused on nextgens doing his favorite contribution of trying to find great ways of harassing people
<@nextgens> just to get things moving
I'm not harassing anyone here, just highlighting facts
< ArneBab_> both of you, could we first get the release out?
<@xor-freenet> nextgens: you're not getting anything moving. you're delaying the release further. the changelog was done from my side.
<@nextgens> ArneBab_> sure.14:38
< ArneBab_> xor-freenet: please read the updated text. Can you use it like that?
“concludes the work” “main feature” “started with event notifications to parallelize” “now things you will see”14:39
<@xor-freenet> nextgens: with regards to the hours please notice that i did not work for 7 months due to health issues, which i don't care nowadays about anymore. i'm nowadays averaging at ~ 80h/month14:47

nextgens: i'm also trying to push the average up even further, but this might take another year or to since i need to relocate to another city for many issues of personal wellbeing to resolve :|14:49
<@nextgens> xor-freenet> none of that is incompatible with what I've said
80h/month of paid work for a project our size is tiny14:50
hell, my employees are expected to do that in two weeks
<@xor-freenet> nextgens: toad has considered working in summer but his calculations show that the money we have is not enough.14:51
< ArneBab_> nextgens: we wouldn’t have the money for financing that
<@nextgens> ArneBab_> raising money is doable

but the first question that will be asked is what have you done with the money you got previously14:52
< ArneBab_> nextgens: do you estimate that we can get enough money to pay toad over the summer?
<@nextgens> I think so if we wanted to
<@xor-freenet> nextgens: then raise money please. it might actually motivate me :P :) because i figure if i work 160 h/month, and burn through FPIs money in like two seconds, then you will for sure be the one to complain that i work *too much* :P
<@nextgens> he was looking at doing a gsoc ...
<@xor-freenet> nextgens: so having more might actually make me work more,14:53
< ArneBab_> I would want that: If we can make him take a few specific tasks, that could move us forward a lot
<@nextgens> xor-freenet> you'll never hear me complain that you work too much
<@xor-freenet> nextgens: i only ever hear you complain.
<@nextgens> xor-freenet> maybe that you don't work efficiently or on useful stuff, but definitely not too much
<@xor-freenet> nextgens: which *costs* money. the more stressed i am, the less i can focus on code, the less code flows, the more money your constant nagging costs.14:54
<@nextgens> ArneBab_> gsoc is $5,000 for 3months of work; that's $1666/month or £1.1k14:55
<@xor-freenet> "<ArneBab_> xor-freenet: please read the updated text. Can you use it like that?" i would prefer to do that tomorrow, i cannot focus on anything anymore right now :|14:56
<@nextgens> ArneBab_> it's cheap in the UK, if toad is willing to work for that salary I don't see why we'd have problems finding funding for it
<@xor-freenet> he said he needs $8K
< ArneBab_> nextgens: gsoc isn’t enough money to live. It’s only enough when you’re a student with the assorted low cost of living.14:57
<@xor-freenet> the problem with what he wants is that he wants to schedule months worth of work ahead of time half a year, and nobody can know how much donations we receive during that time, so its possible that my regular pay has burned away all the savings and the remainder is not enough when he wants to start
<@nextgens> that's roughly what my gf used to make when employed in the hotel industry
< ArneBab_> assorted→associated
<@nextgens> you can make a living out of it; it's definitely not what CS grads aspire to, that I conceed14:58
< ArneBab_> nextgens: it would not suffice to feed my family (not by a wide margin)
<@nextgens> but then again, if you want to be paid "industry rates" work for the industry
<@xor-freenet> also, i would say that poor toad unfortunately is at a moment of much doubt in his life and not even sure what he wants :(14:59
< ArneBab_> nextgens: for GSoC money you get students who want to flip bits not burgers. It’s great to have, but no longterm perspective.15:00
<@nextgens> agreed

but then again, it doesn't have to be an all out thing

most contractors have got several gigs in parallel
<@xor-freenet> i can tell you that i definitely *want* to stay with freenet, and i *want* WOT to just freaking work some day... but we need to resolve these social issues in this channel, because it is getting to the point of regularly royally destroying me as if i was just in a car crash or whatever, and you need to work on your attitudes just as i do.
<@nextgens> (that's the only way you can ensure some form of stability/sustainability)

I've never been paid by the project and never will be15:01

I want freenet to stay a volunteering gig for me

and I'm not even trying to do the maths to see if it'd be an option15:02

I'm not here to give life lessons...

but if you want something stable (to feed/fund family and whatknot) ...15:03

then the contracting model where you have a single gig is definitely a no-go

regardless of how much it pays (and especially if it's an OSS project)
<@xor-freenet> what are you trying to achieve right now?15:04
<@nextgens> employment as a regular employee is the way to go

and that, I do agree with you, the project can't afford
<@xor-freenet> how is this a problem to WOT / freenet right now whether i want a contract whatsoever? i'm happy with what i get right now15:05
< ArneBab_> xor-freenet: I think he’s discussing with me.
<@xor-freenet> ah ok
<@nextgens> yes, sorry that was for ArneBab_15:06
<@xor-freenet> well the freenet being his single job thing has worked pretty well for toad for 10 years, i think his move towards CS was more due to his general paranoia ?
< ArneBab_> for certain definitions of well…15:07
<@xor-freenet> we're not all that doomed is what i'm trying to say, of course the funding situation sucks from a philosophical point of view because a nice project such as freenet should get nice money, but we didn't exactly run out of money yet either, so it sort of works
we will however run out of developers if all people see when they read the backlog is flamewares :)15:08
(and this is where my paranoia starts: i think the flamewar stuff is a problem of the whole computer industry, or specifically, of being nerds. we're socially incompetent, all of us.)15:09
("my panaroia" as in my personal "we're doomed" feeling, because right now i am at fear that weekly flamewars will continue for the rest of my life as a programmer, and i will end up switching to bartending then, which will be even worse because drunk people are even more socially incompetent than geeks)15:10
(and just for the record: i do NOT exclude myself at this. my social skills DO suck.)
so anyway, thanks for your continous patience with my rants :) .... progress report for today: 6.25 hours now, no commits since there were no found by the WOT test runs. finished 3 test runs, which means that 5 of the 6 before i tag the release candidate are done. the 6th is running now. i will give it a night worth of sleep to execute. its basically my main personal WOT database, with my seed identity. this test run also serves as a preparation15:17
so i can put the release notes onto my floghelper flog :) i'm confident that i can tag the damn release candidate tomorrow, i REALLY WANT THIS TO BE OVER FINALLY AS WELL :) :) also finished writing the testing instructions today, they're on github (https://gist.github.com/xor-freenet/791 3faede9cdf4d470db) ... while the test runs were executing, i continued to deal with the FMS and mail backlog... i unfortunately forgot to write down the number
of mails before i started, so i cannot tell how many i processed, probably a hundred... FYI i first process the ones which contain the word "trust" so WOT gets done first...yes, it is useful processing the old mails, toad has provided a lot of feedback on WOT code since he used to review *all* of it. also saw that ArneBab contributed quite a few WOT bugtracker entries with new ideas, thanks for that. immediate next TODOs for tomorrow: 1) read
log of the final test run 2) publish release candidate on FMS + devl 3) start triaging bugtracker entries for the next release :) 4) run screaming through the woods :)
"there were no found by the WOT test runs" = there were no *bugs* found15:18
< ArneBab_> xor-freenet: did you read the proposed release notes now?15:28
<@xor-freenet> ArneBab_: i will definitely read them tomorrow, but i would prefer to give my body some time to regenerate now... i think it also wants food :)
< ArneBab_> ok
<@xor-freenet> ArneBab_: (this is also a test run: what happens if you enter the same pizza for weeks?)15:29
< ArneBab_> hint: don’t. Get yourself some fresh vegetables and fruits. A carrot and an apple do wonders.15:31

and some cheese to the carrot
<@xor-freenet> ArneBab_: no. i will order soylent. actually i cannot order soylent because they have a 5 months delivery queue because like 10 million IT people all noticed that their perfect food exists now. :D :D :D
ArneBab_: (yes, the queue IS 4-5 months. insane)15:32
< ArneBab_> xor-freenet: and soylent is pretty expensive

xor-freenet: for something whose side effects will be noticed by IT folks in a few years.15:33
<@xor-freenet> ArneBab_: less time absorbing energy = more time to write code = more money = faster WOT.
< ArneBab_> ^ will be a great medical study for food science.
< hodapp> soylent did not much appeal to me.16:18
for one thing, I love food too much.
and cooking.
and I'm not trying to lose weight.
< TheSeeker> If WoT is stable, can we finally have a 1468 pre-2 now?17:37
< ArneBab_> TheSeeker: the code is there, the changelog (for the rc) is written, so I think that should be possible and would be great!17:49
TheSeeker: we still need to fix the plugins. I sent an FCP log to toad and others (CHK link) and asked for help in debugging…17:50
bbl (or bbad)
< rfree_prox> hmm I can't read entire backlog, is WoT improved performance currently?17:58

operhiem1, hm? You have some dispute with people writing translations? Since it's all FOSS and public, in case of disagreement we could just fork the what-ever thing they do not want to hand over right?18:38

not to start a long debate, but I thought we aren't forced to kick people like " <qwebirc34035> i need help finfing censored books " it doesn't say it is about our occupants (UK/USA governments) </my-political-opinion-plug> - it could as well be guy in China or North Korea asking about things that are banned there and USA and UK officially support like "books on democracy" etc. For future.18:41

but yes if you want freedom then Freenet not #freenet.18:42
< ArneBab_> rfree_prox: re translation it’s not that simple. It seems they got control over the admin interface.19:24
rfree_prox: re WoT: It’s improvements on other fronts, but the non-direct-performance stuff is out of the way now.19:25